Home > series > Quiz Time #3: Manchester´s big brother

Quiz Time #3: Manchester´s big brother

What is the highest production you can achieve for more than one turn on a theoretical setup with the following rules?

  • Map is duel sized (24×16 tiles), e.g. Inland_Sea
  • Resources on flood plains are not allowed.
  • You can make any tile on the map be whatever you like just it have to be tiles occurring on usual civ maps.
  • You can use the entire map = make it be in your cultural borders (just as if you planted it all)
  • There is no turn limit: You can have your city build anything you like and you can research any technology you want.
  • Only those production modifiers count that apply to every project, so traits for example don´t count.
  • Overflow doesn´t count.
  • No Slaving.
  • Hanging Gardens are banned.
  • Settling Great People in the city is banned.
  • *UPDATE*: Future Techs are banned. (For future reference in relation to the solution post.)

Think up a theoretical setup (=the land to plant and work) and name what is necessary to achieve maximum production in your city.

Post your solutions as comments.

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  1. Mike
    April 2, 2010 at 18:55

    Two questions:

    1) What is the game speed? Yes, this answer does make a difference…
    2) Can we ban forest chops? The number of hammers from chopping 383 forests simultaneously dwarfs all other considerations…and frankly calculating how many hammers that would be is nuts.

    • April 2, 2010 at 19:05

      – Quick Speed.
      – Yep, forest chops are banned. Or in other words, there are no forest on the map. I was looking for base production, dunno why I forgot that in the initial question while I had written it down on paper while planning before 😀

  2. Mike
    April 2, 2010 at 19:55

    Another question: do whips count?

  3. Mike
    April 2, 2010 at 20:27

    This is an interesting one. I’m assuming whips don’t count, either; that would require a very different approach, and being careful of happy/health limits because no Future Tech if you want the Kremlin.

    My answer: 12,023 hammers. 1715 base hammers + 432 overflow hammers @ a 5.6 multiplier. Ignoring overflow, that’s 9,604 hammers.

    Assume we’re in a golden age. This map will have NO copper on it.

    Leader: Actually doesn’t matter, except we CANNOT be Industrious. Spi wouldn’t hurt.
    Civ: Japan
    The capital’s tiles were all windmilled.
    Turn -1: Finish the Internet, which was at 1339/1340 Hammers. NOT in Bureau. So, we easily get maximum overflow, which ends up being truncated to 1340/3.1 (rounded down), or 432 hammers. This is why you can’t be Industrious, in Bureau, or have copper: we’d lose more overflow.
    Turn 0: Replace all 20 windmills with mines. Produce the Docking Bay. Using CR (or Spi), switch to Bureau. 432 overflow hammers + 1715 produced hammers @ 560% hammers = 2147 * 5.6 = 12,023 hammers.

    Civics:
    Bureau (+50% Hammers), Mercantilism, not in OR.

    Buildings:
    IW, Factory, Shale Plant, Forge, Space Elevator, Laboratory (+310% hammers)
    Having Aluminum (+100% hammers)
    +410% hammers from buildings/situational +50% from Bureau = 5.6 hammer multiplier.

    Other buildings:
    Industrial Park, Health and happy buildings as needed, Supermarket, Cristo Redentor

    Capital:
    Food: Supermarket (+1 food; 2 food from city capital; 18 food from grass hills; 20 food from windmills means max food was 41 food: 21 pop; one may starve this turn, but whatever)

    All tiles have river + levee built.
    City Center: Plains Hill Iron, Coal, or Gold (5h)
    20 tiles: All RR’d hills with Mining Inc Resources (iron/coal/alum): 2 plains, 18 grass (2 base hammers + 1 from GA + 1 levee + 1 RR +1 resource + 3 mine = 9 hammers * 2; 18 grass hills *8 = 144, so 162)
    +6 hammers from AP buildings (Temple, Cathedral, Shrine)
    1 Engineer (pop) + 1 Engineer (Merc) + 1 free Engineer (Industrial Park) = 6 hammers.
    Total: 179 hammers + 1536 Mining Hammers = 1715 hammers.

    Corporations: Mining Inc (+4 hammers per resource!): 384 tiles * 4 hammers = 1536 base hammers. Again, NO COPPER: just iron/coal/aluminum/gold.

  4. April 2, 2010 at 21:25

    Some wicked shit you did there – half of it is what I´m looking for, the other isn´t.

    At this point I´m not sure whether I just asked the question in the wrong way :/.
    I´ve updated the initial post to make it clearer:

    No overflow, no chops, no traits – it´s about the maximum amount of production your city can have EVERY turn for the rest of the game FOR every single item of production. So if you did a wonder and were IND, you´d actually have even more production then the number I´m looking for.

    Only those production modifiers count that apply to every project, so traits for example don´t count. Bureaucracy works – Police State or Organized Religion don´t.

    Overall the solution is less complex then where you headed – though I like the creativity there 😀

  5. Mike
    April 3, 2010 at 05:12

    Darn, the 1-turn bit was a lot of fun. Can’t get quite as many base hammers long-term, and clearly the multiplier’s a lot lower (+225% situational bonuses seems to be as high as the game goes; Heroic Epic + Military Academy + Drydock + Police State: but you’d need a 20-tile navigable lake next to the city to do so, which hurts base production a lot).

    Still Japan. Assuming that we’re not going to see flat grass strategics (which I think only get added on balanced resource settings? And in limited numbers?); that would add 2 base hammers to the overall plan (a worked cereal mills food resource produces 11 food + hammer resources; a non-gold Mining Inc one produces 12, including the corp bonus), bringing us to 6022 after modifiers. (19 flat grass tiles, and a plains hill tile, all with non-gold Mining Inc resources).

    Cereal Mills + Mining Inc corporations. Non-BFC is Mining Inc resources.

    So, city center is still a plains hill iron/copper/coal (4 hammers, 2 food)
    All BFC tiles are rivered.
    18 RR Grass Hill Copper/Iron/Coal on a river produces 7 hammers and 1 food each. So, that’s 18 food, and 126 hammers.
    1 Grass Corn + 1 Plains Wheat (13 food, 3 hammers)
    Cereal Mills (6 food)
    Mining Inc (382 tiles * 4 hammers per = 1528)
    Same buildings as before, levee, etc.
    Supermarket for 1 food
    Industrial Park for a free engineer. Mercantilism for a free Engineer. 4 hammers.
    6 hammers from AP buildings.

    That’s 40 food to feed 20 pop.
    Hammers: 1671 hammers.

    Hammer modifiers:
    +260% (Bureau, Factory, Forge, Shale, IW)

    So, 6015 hammers. Of course, being able to build anything in the game in 1t on even Marathon is…uh…a little nuts. (With max overflow off of the Internet at Marathon, the old plan hit 19,000 hammers in a single turn).

  6. MiroMcDuck
    April 6, 2010 at 23:32

    Civ: Japan
    Leader: doesn’t matter

    Tiles on map: every single tile is iron on grass (G), except 2 plains/hill/coal (C) tiles and 1 grass/hill/iron (H). River is between every two tiles on map. Railroads and mines everywhere.

    Capital is built on (C) and has another (C) and (H) in fat cross. City size: 20. Working every tile in fat cross.

    Buildings: Levee, Forge (+25%), Ironworks (+100%), Factory (+25%), Shale Plant (+60%), Supermarket (+1F), Industrial Park (+1 free engineer)

    Corporation: Mining, Inc. (+4 hammers per every tile on map)

    Wonders: Statue of Liberty (+1 free engineer)

    Civics: Bureaucracy (+50%), Mercantilism (+1 free engineer)
    ———————————————————–
    Base Production: 4 (City tile) + 18*6 (G) + 7 (H) + 8 (C) + 4*384 (Corp) + 3*2 (free engineer) = 1669 hammers

    Multipliers: 260%
    ———————-
    Total Production: 6008

    (Btw. to Mike: religion buildings have no effect on production unless you actually work a priest.)

    • April 7, 2010 at 20:39

      Your city will starve :p

      • MiroMcDuck
        April 7, 2010 at 21:38

        Why would it starve? 18 pop is fed by grass/iron, 1 pop by city tile and 20th pop by hill and supermarket.

      • April 7, 2010 at 21:42

        So I assume you have a National Park in it :P?

  7. Spyro
    April 7, 2010 at 00:54

    MiroMcDuck: (Btw. to Mike: religion buildings have no effect on production unless you actually work a priest.)

    … you tried Apostolic Palace with religious buildings?

  8. Mike
    April 7, 2010 at 02:06

    It’s the Apostolic Palace bonus hammers, not working the priests. As long as you don’t have Mass Media, it’s fine.

    Right, I forgot about the Statue. So, that’s 2 base hammers.

  9. MiroMcDuck
    April 7, 2010 at 10:02

    Hmm, never heard of it. OK then its 1675 + 260% = 6030. And you need at least 2 AIs on map. I guess you can trade them some techs for all of their iron.

  10. April 7, 2010 at 20:47

    So no one gets the solution 😛 ?

  11. Killa
    April 7, 2010 at 22:20

    no enough random events with bonus health^^
    and of course the event with 2 bonus hammers per mine^^

    • April 7, 2010 at 22:22

      Lol, Random Events 😀

      Gotta love those in Single Player – but not what we´re looking for here 😉

  12. Killa
    April 7, 2010 at 22:30

    ad it to the rules XD

  13. Mike
    April 8, 2010 at 03:25

    Health isn’t a problem:
    Research 20 Future Techs. Solved.

    Since all victories (except diplomatic) are turned off, we can start the game with 2 AIs, get the Apostolic Palace built, and then kill them. So, start with Miro’s build, then add the 6 base hammers from the Apostolic Palace, and we get to 6,030 hammers. You don’t need to be an AP resident to get the hammer bonus, you just need the AP to have been built.

    So, there are two things to maximize: Base hammers, and the multiplier.

    What else are we missing? Miro gets the minimum 40 food, all of it for either free (city center, supermarket), or where each food only costs 1 hammer (the 37 worked food). Corporation bonuses bring in the maximum 4 hammers per tile, and that’s across all 384 tiles. The tiles in the center all yield the maximum number of resources (8 food + hammers). More food can be turned directly into hammers with more engineers, but that’s quite limited, we could have the 2nd plains hill be a flat grass instead, and have 1 more engineer, trading 2 hammers for 2 food that becomes 2 hammers.

    Avoiding SciMeth (and keeping ToA and AW up) doesn’t help, because while you gain 2 hammers from that, you lose 1 food from the Supermarket (costs 1 hammer: switch the grass hill to a flat grass), and 2 hammers from the lack of the Industrial park, not to mention health constraints, coming out way behind.

    What other sources of hammers are there? We’ve covered the free buildings (Statue, Mercantilism, Industrial Park, Supermarket), base tiles, and the corporation bonus. All yield their maximal amount of resources, I think. And, yes, I’m using the word “resources”, not hammers, because food can be converted into hammers. A Cereal Mills post-Bio corn yields 8 resources on the tile, like the RR Flat Iron Mine, but only 3 corporation resources, instead of 4 from the Mining Inc. one.

    For production modifiers, +260% is the maximum that we’ve found. State Property adds 10%, but costs us…oh, I don’t know, over 1500 base hammers from the corporation. No other multipliers exist (CFC lists the Assembly Plant as providing +50% hammers from coal, but that’s a mistake: It’s +50% production speed from having Coal, which is a weird bonus).

    • April 8, 2010 at 09:05

      Health is a problem. Future techs don´t count. I know I didn´t say that in the initial post – but then in the history of the game no one ever has used Future Techs as a solution to health or happiness problems . I simply forgot that that was even possible – I actually realized yesterday night after having turned off the comp…

      Anyway, the question is designed in a way to misslead in exactly the way Miro was misslead – or maybe he wasn´t and just counted future techs… – not that I doubt that you guys can adjust to not being abe to build the National Park.

      Taking that part aside though since it´s obviously my mistake to not have in mind what future techs do there is still another little thing missing though regarding production which no one named so far.

  14. Killa
    April 8, 2010 at 11:23

    well change from merkantilism to enviromentalism this should solve the healt problems
    but cost 2 base hammers
    also we can add a golden age
    meaning +20 base hammers (one per tile of the city)
    or did i miss it and you all got it allready^^

    • April 8, 2010 at 11:31

      Environmentalism is part of the solution – but isn´t enough alone.

      Yep – Golden Age :D!
      2 fictional bonus points for Killa 😛

  15. Killa
    April 8, 2010 at 11:33

    still something missing?

  16. Killa
    April 8, 2010 at 12:05

    cant we capture a city of the ai with all those health etc buildings in it
    get forced per UN to environmentalism
    have not researched SciMeth so we can bulid Angkor Wat and ToA and also have a working monastery^^

  17. April 8, 2010 at 12:09

    There isn´t really anything “missing” anymore. Just that without Future Techs, Miro´s proposal for land/buildup won´t work due to the city starving to unhealth (is that a word :P?).

  18. Killa
    April 8, 2010 at 12:32

    unhealthiness says civilopedia but we know what unhealth is XD
    then forget my last try it was just a try to get those two more basehammers 😉

  19. Chieron
    April 8, 2010 at 19:04

    well, I think I got it now:

    Japan, Golden Age, Bureaucracy, Environmentalism
    Mining Inc., Cereal Mills
    Bonuses: Forge(25%),Factory(25%),Shale Plant(10%),Power (50%), Capital(50%), Ironworks(100%) -> 260%
    Happy issues: Globe Theatre
    Health issues:
    fresh water +2
    ressources +4 (corn, wheat, granary)
    difficulty +4
    civilization +9 (Enviro,Genetics – or +8 enviro+expansive leader)
    buildings +8 (2 Aqueduct,3 Hospital, 2 Public Transportation)
    ———
    27/26 Health
    Unhealth: 20 (Pop) + 4 (Power) + 2 (Coal) ->26. not net unhealthiness
    Supermarket. +1 f
    Apostolic Palace, temple, cathedral and shrine of AP-religion, no Mass Media
    Statue of Liberty

    361 Mining Inc. ressources outside of BFC (minimum of 1 iron and coal)
    also, 1 wheat and 1 corn
    inside the BFC:
    all riverside, all railroaded
    center tile: plains hill iron (2f5h)
    15 grassland iron (2f7h)->30f,105h
    5 plains hill iron (0f9h)->45h
    ->tile production of 32f155h

    Food: 32(tiles) + 6 (corp) +1 (Supermarket) = 39 food, enough to reach size 20. (grow from size 19, starve at -1 (will take longer than one turn to drop back to 19 thanks to the Granary 😉 , else swap 1h for 1f)

    Production:
    155h from tiles
    (361+21)*4h = 1528h from Mining Inc.
    6h from religious Buildings
    2h from specialist (engineer or Angkor Wat priest)
    ——–
    1691 base hammers
    +260% bonus
    ——–
    6087 total hammers.
    (1690/6084 hammers for the stable solution)

  20. MiroMcDuck
    April 8, 2010 at 22:06

    Well alright. It’s not really cool changing rules like this, but at least I understand now why were HG banned. :p

    It goes like this:

    I pick expansive leader (+2 health).

    City is built on plains/hill/coal. In fat cross there are these tiles: 5x plains/hill/iron, 1x grass/corn, 1x grass/hill/iron and 13x grass/iron. Outside city are all iron tiles. With Cereal Mills I lose only 1 hammer compared to former setup. But I gain +2 health.

    I adopt environmentalism (+6 health, -2 hammers).

    Another buildings: Recycling center (No unhealth from buldings), Aqueduct (+2), Hospital (+3), Public Transportation (+3), Hydro Plant (cancels unhealthiness from Shale while preserving its bonus).

    So at the end I have:

    Unhealthiness: +2 from Power, +3 from Bonuses and +20 from pop = 25.
    Health: +2 Fresh Water, +2 Corn, +8 Buildings, +5 Basic Health, +2 Exp leader, +6 Environmetalism = 25.

    I lost 3 hammers against first solution so its 1672 + 260% = 6019.

  21. MiroMcDuck
    April 8, 2010 at 22:09

    BTW I dont understand talk about Golden Age. It lasts only few turns, task was to find max production that can last forever.

  22. MiroMcDuck
    April 8, 2010 at 22:24

    Anyway, I just noticed updated question (again), :((( and the answer is infinity.

    I will use my supercity from Quiz 2 and by drafting (which isn’t forbidden :D) I can grow it into any size I want. Then I change all my people to basic specialists (there is no restriction on their number). So as you can see I can make any production last 2 turns. And I dare you to change rules again. 😀

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